March, 04, 2013

The repugnant culture of the “UniLad”

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Name: Gregor McCann
Member of: Student Panellist
Joined: Nov 2012
Gregor's Full Profile

I need to start this article by stating that I am a male that attends university. If you are being pedantic, I am technically a university lad. But I detest everything about the attitudes and ideologies of this sexist cult. I repudiate the title bestowed upon me by gender and situation, and reserve the right to behave in a way that does not treat women like non-sentient objects capable of nothing more than offering base pleasures and looking pretty.

Photo by destinyuk*’s

I also need to urge you not to assume that this means that I think women can’t have fun or casual encounters with guys. Women have just as much right as men to do what they want. I simply hate the attitudes of a specific group of men that attend university, men of the sort that I have previously had encounters with and would sooner rather than later mutilate with a machete (figuratively, of course).

My problems with this cult all stem from one observation, one that I must admit I sometimes have trouble voicing from fear of awkwardness. It is very simple and I don’t understand why more people don’t have a problem with it: all they care about is sex and, when it comes to sex, they view it only as a means to raising their ‘number’.

This is an ostensibly harmless perception. So what if all they want is sex? They aren’t doing anyone any harm. Well, I disagree with that totally and completely. Let me explain why. This monomaniacal quest for female genitalia inexorably leads them to regress through the evolutionary eons and behave like nothing more than primitive mammals programmed only to eat, sleep, drink, and fuck. Go out into any club in England and you will know what I mean. They approach women with as much courtesy and respect as a fly might approach an alluring pile of a horse faeces. The girl will simply be dancing with her friends, having a perfectly fun night, and then, unwittingly, she will be descended upon by an opportunistic predator with a taste for human meat.

Okay that is obviously an unfair caricature, but you see the point I’m driving at. I do not want to be intentionally vulgar, but I feel I must to explicitly spell out my point; all they want from women is them to open their legs and take a dick, nothing more. I know this because I talk to people every day who speak about women in such ways. I’ve been in flats where they have ‘sex charts’ on the walls and a common question around university is ‘what’s your number (of sexual partners)?’. If you give an answer that is not to their liking, you are greeted with a sea of contempt. Fucking pussy, get out there and pull lad, is not an uncommon thing to hear.

Think about this. Really think about it. Think about how these guys are viewing women. Is this right? Would any girl want to be thought of, or talked about, in this way? I highly doubt it. Again I must reiterate that women can choose to sleep with whoever they want – that is no business of mine – but the attitudes of these guys are still reprehensible and repugnant to the highest degree. This obsession with sex that is permeating throughout the halls of every university in England with more vigour than that of the 14th century plague is, I must say, a very real and serious problem.

It is a problem for women and for men. It is a problem for women because it is obviously sexist (recall the horrifying ‘slutdrop’ story and you will understand what I mean). It is a problem for men because it is turning them into disgusting apes with nothing more to offer than a drunken splurge and an awkward text. I really think that this ‘UniLad’ or ‘Lad’ or ‘LabBible’ culture needs to be obliterated as soon as possible. We need not behave like animals. We are better than that.

If you remember anything from this article, I urge you to make it this: Women have so much more to offer than a tick on a piece of paper.

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  1. Devang Dave

    Gregor, I’ve got to admit that I personally agree with you.
    Whilst not a uni student yet, (hopefully I will be in two years time), that sort of behaviour isn’t just limited there, but it’s constantly spreading to almost all social places. Personally, I’ve encountered it at both my local cricket club and the rugby club. Why there of all places? Because these ‘Lads’ do/have attended there, and so spread this disgusting and demeaning behaviour to some of the younger members who think of these as idols, and so the afore mentioned youths emulate the behaviour, causing it to be repeated.

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  2. Gillian Swarbrigg

    It is a culture which builds on its self with a constant desire to out do the person/generation that came before them.

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  3. Amanda Fee

    Thanks for this!
    We need more guys like you who are unafraid of standing up against this culture. I’ve seen so many women write against it and all they get is the typical ‘nagging bitch’ kind of reply. it’s never taken seriously because of this. It’s refreshing to see someone of the male gender voicing their concerns, and I’m guessing you’ve encountered your fair share of pressure from guys who have this idiotic mindset. You haven’t succumbed to it, you’ve done the opposite and spoken out against it. Congratulations, you are a representative of what it means to be a decent human being!

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  4. Molly Garbutt

    At the end of the day, these guys are free to make their own choices and that is something that we have to respect. But when it comes to actual blatant harassment of women, similar to what you describe here, it becomes a problem. After all, while neither of the stereotypes you mention above apply to the majority of students, this is part of a larger problem – specifically, the rape culture that has always been an accepted part of modern society. The idea of sleeping with as many women as possible is fine, if that’s how you swing – but using it as bragging rights or “slut shaming” is detestable, and like the author says, ought to be stopped, because it simply reinforces the belief that it is okay for young women to be preyed on in clubs and bars. I definitely think that this concept needs to be stopped as much as possible, and it’s beginning – a bunch of “UniLads” on a hockey team got their comeuppance after behaving rudely and disrespectfully on a bus. After all, you wouldn’t accept that sort of behavior from a child or a mature adult, so why take it from teenagers?

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  5. Universal

    As a girl whose slept with a tonne of guys I think my viewpoint is not represented here. I notice some casual slut shaming here.
    I’m addressing the issue that women reinforce the behaviour by shagging said ‘uni lads’. Since the 60s and the pill we’ve all been able to have a lot more casual sex, thank fuck, because usually the women were left with the kid.
    I think…. It has given women the chance to enjoy sex without worrying about the repercussions. This is a good thing. However obviously we all make mistakes and I’ve slept with scumbags because of bad judgment, or because I’ve just met them. A lot of my experiences I can’t really say if the guy was respectful or not because I didn’t see him after, and that’s fine I’d rather not know. Some of the guys were openly shit at the time and that’s what I feel bad about. But I don’t see how their disrespect is my fault.
    Why am I respected less for enjoying casual sex, because I might sleep with guys who respect me less? Wait… Going round in circles. See my point?
    Same as- ‘if she’s done this with me she’s done it with loads’ which is a complete jump, sometimes you are in the moment and just existing physically and we are all animals with our needs. The main thing is- I have never pushed anyone into anything (like guys do) or treated someone bad becAuse of it.
    Ok, the thing about low self worth probably does apply to me, but you know, why do I get derision for that? Shouldn’t people be helping me? Why am I blamed for someone taking advantage of me? Also their is that song by frightened rabbit which makes a good point, about not finding love in ‘a hole’ (lol) it’s the same for women, sometimes you just want to feel something and not be alone, and with our rapidly urbanised planet and despite our greater access to communication and connection- we are all lonelier than ever.

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    • Cameron Hector

      I think the point he’s making isn’t that people shouldn’t sleep with whoever or however many people thy like. What he takes issue with is the way the UniLAD culture emphasises this behaviour to the extent of rape culture and the attitude that your ‘number’ is the most important aspect. Pulling in a club and sleeping with someone you don’t know is fine, we all have urges. But speaking as a guy in a committed long distance relationship (and therefore not sexually active for most the term), I get encouraged by other guys who are obsessed with just using women for sex to cheat on my girlfriend or be branded ‘whipped’. I’ve also seen the way guys approach women – they pick out who they think is the easiest/drunkest and will do all sorts that goes beyond simple flirtation. I’ve seen guys literally pick smaller women up and carry them off, all in the name of Lad culture. This article is a little sensationalised at times, but he has the point nailed – these guys, minority though they might be, are devaluing women in ways women are not doing to men. I don’t care if people sleep around, the drama amuses me, but some of my female friends are only out to have a good time and the way guys expect sex from them is unfair.

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  6. Robbie Osborne

    women are equally, if not worse, than men in fulfilling the ‘unilad’ stereotype.

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  7. Alice Doolan

    I agree with you too, both women and men have certain expectations for each other and it shouldn’t be needed. Being young myself, you feel the social pressures to do certain things all the time and personally i feel like i can live a happy and healthy life without it. Thank you for raising this issue.

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  8. Charlotte Ducker

    So true. In my opinion I think its quite pathetic that they feel the need to sleep around in order to ‘raise their numbers’ like its going to make them more attractive or highly thought of.

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  9. RICCA JOHAL

    This is the first time that ive heard a male talk so highly of women. Its nice to see that there are still some decent men out there that respect women and how they feel. I totally agree with what you’re saying and i feel that more guys should think like you, then maybe women wouldnt have such a bad name when they decide to do what men do in uni.

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  10. Julline Lagorio

    I’m sure I’ve commented on this before but I still agree. What you’re talking about is sexual objectification in the very difficult context of slut-shaming and body-shaming and general sex-negativity.
    I have a question about objectification in such a context: how could a person approach another for a sexual encounter without objectifying the other person? If the initiator intends the person to be a “number”, it’s obviously objectifying, as with the initiator assuming consent and groping a person. However, surely if one person walks up to another with the intent of sex, it is objectification in the sense that the person is viewed solely as a means of having sex, replaceable by any other person… Thoughts, anyone?

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    • Cameron Hector

      I do know a girl who takes the opinion that the best way for her to know a guy is to have sex with him and find out what he’s like before/during/after sex. Obviously if the guy listens to what she wants, or doesn’t just scarper in the morning, those sorts of things, then he’s probably not a bad person so she tries it out. Either way, she gets sex, so she wins. Just an anecdote, personally I have to trust someone a lot before sex is even an option.

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  11. Amina Drir

    Whilst your article is well written, and so witty (I am a sucker for witticisms ), I have to say that I don’t quite agree. I mean, sure, there is no denying that this sort of culture exists, I just don’t think the responsibility lies solely with men. I amn’t in any case saying that women are asking for it (unlike the dimwitted fellow a few comments below who used the word slut). It’s just that I feel that certain girls can advocate this culture and almost encourage this sort of behaviour from men. We all know those girls who deliberately act like fools, shrieking and yelling in public to attract male attention. This probably really doesn’t help the situation, and sort of validates the actions that these guys are taking; it makes it seem like whatever they’re doing is actually working.

    Also, I feel like you do get the guys who are all “I’m respectful, not like my peers, I’ll treat you like lady! So why aren’t you having sex with me?!” I am in no way accusing you of that, because you come across very genuine, but we can’t deny that it’s true for some men, ey.

    All in all, I think we’re better equipped to deal with the lads you speak about in your article..but not necessarily for the more cunning ones.

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  12. Lena Adams

    Welcome to today’s society. What I think is the root of this is just peer pressure of guys ‘egging’ each other on; its exactly the same as drinking culture but on another level. Not much can be done about this but there are still men out there who show the correct courtesy to women.

    This point I’m making doesn’t mean that women don’t do the same thing. This can happen to men too but the best way around it is just to be around people who are a good influence or at least know right from wrong in serious cases. Still doesn’t mean you can go out and have fun, it just means that you need to be more careful whether your the one on the dance floor or the one looking for someone to dance with.

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  13. Emily A\'Court

    Completely agree with absolutely everything said. So refreshing to hear it from a tecnhical “uni lad”.

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  14. Stephen Buquich

    The monkey that flings it’s faeces at the moon with complete incomprehension of distance will eventually stop if no one laughs at it.

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  15. Louise Herron

    ten out of fucking ten. Lad culture leads to rape culture. I’m serious about this one, a group of lads go out, get way too drunk, pressure each other in to doing stuff. It’s happened before so many times.
    I’m to the point now where I go out and my friends will go “ew get them off me” referring to some stranger we have never met dry humping her back on the dance floor AND so I have resorted to sticking my hand in their mouths or up their noses, to make them feel as damn violated as we do.

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  16. Florence Thompson

    I agree totally! And I will add that having a “chart” is not only repulsive and offensive, but also ridiculously sad – I mean, seriously, if someone’s university life consists of trying to have sex with as many people as possible, well it’s a pretty grim life they’re leading. The same goes for women too, of course, as you’ve said.

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  17. Ben Tinson

    ‘Ladish’ behaviour is simply created through peer pressure. It is not in the nature of any guy to behave in that way they simply get pushed into the situation by other guys who like a laugh.
    Also I I think it’s unfair to judge the men when women give themselves away with no struggle. Without sluts there wouldn’t be ‘ladish’ behaviour.

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  18. Elizabeth Diamond

    This is so true! and yes! some women behave in the same manner as men! just wanting ‘sex’ but just not give any person a right to think that every girl in a club, pub or wherever is the same! And everyone should have more bloody dignity and pride when they go out! not just wanting to get fuck and drunk and take a good profile photo for Facebook!

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  19. Kevin Madden

    Yessss! Feminists like to complain, so maleists lets unite!!

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  20. Keith

    This article does state a valid point, but only one valid point at that. There are many other issues with the “UniLad”, or “twat”. For starters those who excel in this lifestyle are nothing more than adolescents who are away from mummy and daddy for the first time and therefore, all previous housebound rules are broken. This is where excessive drinking, loutish behaviour and an egotistical attitude are born. This is not uncommon in most youths, but with the “UniLads”, they see it as there given right to behave in such a manner. These actions and the camaraderie are not too dissimilar from being a member of a gang, where these characters would rather not risk the ridicule of not joining in, and instead egging each other on at every opportunity. There are girls in my class who carry the same attributes too. It just shows that many of the undergraduates of today are nothing more than school kids with and legal ID and a student loan to get pissed up with.

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  21. Rob Smith

    ‘Lad culture’ simply reflects a toxic amount of sexual insecurity amongst young men in our society, where through a spineless combination of peer pressure and chronic terror of sexual rejection, they resort to misogyny and manipulation to attempt the pretence of being ‘real men’.

    It seems to have got way worse since when I was at uni, but then I tended to ignore these types of people. I think the only difference was that we referred to them as ‘douchebags’.

    There is little distinction between this behaviour and the behaviour of a rapist, in fact the mentality is the same. A bouncer can throw them out of the club, but they will scuttle back in a night later, on that lingering quest to get a woman so drunk and confused they can drag them back to their mould-soaked student cave.
    It’s no doubt the mark of a loser to rely on alcohol to win a girl over, but then, all ‘lads’ are losers.

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  22. Daniel Doyle

    This is an extremely valid point. You fail to mention however, that some females are also like this. People at university have shocked me. I have been brought up to respect the people surrounding me. The male behavior towards the females is simply defined as disrespect. But this is just a reoccurring theme i see in my day to day university life. Nothing will ever be done about the way ‘lads’ are. Its just the way it has always been and will always be. When they grow older and have daughters, this is when they will regret it!

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  23. laura coombs

    cool story bro

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  24. Lukasz Malec

    I agree they have more to offer, but quite frankly they don’t really care to give it to anybody (we’re talking everything but sex).
    I’m not saying it’s all their fault, I mean they show what most verbal guys ask for, but c’mon…
    Like one comedian said: “chivalry is dead and women killed it”, I mean it seems like days when people were about having one persona and staying with one person are gone. It’s just easier to change and look for another. But this article shows I’m not the only one thinking that.

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  25. Adam

    I love the way all the negative comments that resort to insults and name calling are from the very idiots defending this dick head behaviour are the very idiots this article is about, good job proving the point Hector.

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  26. Hector Fair

    you make some valid points, often men treat women disrespectfully, but your condescending attitude and assumption that if men are only after sex then we are no better than apes makes you come across as a self righteous cunt. Have you even contemplated that maybe it’s flattering to have someone think you’re attractive? I recognise that it’s often taken to excess but you just sound like your head is too far up your own arse to appreciate normal human social behaviour.

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  27. Dude

    Don’t be a hater all your life. It’s not that fun.

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  28. Amber Lennox

    While I don’t explicitly disagree with anything in this article, I think there’s a bit too much needless ranting over objective analysis. There doesn’t seem much of a point to it. Everyone knows there are some guys that act this way and some that don’t. But unless you can offer much insight into the causes/problems/solutions, it’s basically you just spieling about how you don’t like certain people.

    Not trying to put it down, just offering some constructive criticism for future writing. I basically finished it going “yes, yes, we know, some guys are dicks, so what’s your point?” Also you don’t really highlight why its an issue. There are real, concrete hazards, like STDs, unplanned pregnancies, rape, etc that you could have touched on, but instead you mostly go for the ‘because I don’t really like the idea’ route.

    I also think the article could have been improved with some more engaging content. Whether it’s empirical evidence like statistics or just more in-depth/gripping anecdotes, something that really makes the reader go “Wow, I never thought about it that way before.”

    As it is it just reads as “I don’t like guys who treat women as objects” stretched out to several hundred words. Which is something every half-decent person agrees with, has been written about countless times, and isn’t really worth stating on its own. Just my personal opinion, sorry. I’m just going for journalistic criticism rather than criticizing your stance. I don’t really feel I gained anything from this article, which is a shame, because you write well.

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    • Laura Myers

      You talk about ‘real, concrete hazards’ as those which manifest themselves physically. What about emotional impacts? I want to go out to nightclubs to dance and have a good time with my friends, not to be groped and leered at by men who don’t seem to consider the possibility of disinterest.
      From reading the article, I more take it as her talking to these men and urging them to think of the person that they’re doing this to and not just thinking of their own sexual desire, or peer pressure, driving them to treat women in this way.
      And for the record, I know that not all men are like this.

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  29. Ayesha Sohpal

    Thank you. I am one of those females who, ten years ago loved to go out to the clubs, and although people like this existed somehow it was not so bad – we didn’t go to ‘student’ places, so this probably explains it. This time, I went to one club in Freshers week and was put off for life. Also I constantly have to listen to these sorts of men discussing the last woman they were involved with, what she was like and how to get rid of her if she did not realise she was nothing but a piece of meat to them. It is absolutely horrible. If you are subjected to their attention, then you are a worthy toy, if not, you are ugly. I’m finding it hard to gel with people because they only want to go clubbing and I don’t want to face that scene anymore, as much as I love dancing. I wish there were more decent people like yourself out there, but today I fear Unilads are the majority.

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    • Gregor McCann

      I am very glad that you enjoyed the article. What happened at the club in Freshers’ week that put you off? I too find the way that some guys talk about women quite worrying, especially if I know the girl that they are talking about. That is a key part of the problem that you have just addressed: if you are like us, then you are cool; if not, then please, go away. I really find it quite disturbing. Anyway, thank you for reading my article. :)

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    • Paul Fewkes

      the thing is with people like this are that they give the gender a bad reputation, people like myself and several others i know from the top of my head all enjoy a night out in a bar or club and just having fun, we don’t go on the hunt for women because we see them as more than toys, in fairness people go out and they meet people, this is going to happen, but the majority of the time for people like myself, if this happens 9/10 it turns into something more than a situation i find myself lying my way out of.

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  30. Adam Stelmach

    I agree with the thrust of the argument, which is that this ‘Lad’ culture behaviour is problematic and seems to be particularly prevalent in universities. As a male student myself, it saddens me insofar as the ‘offenders,’ if I may call them that, are my peers and as a result of their behaviour we are often tarred with the same brush. All too many times have I heard young women exclaim with little to no perceived hyperbole that ‘all guys are the same.’ It is unfortunate that an entire demographic is occasionally stereotyped based on the actions of what I perceive to be a small minority, but I can’t say I entirely blame the women who make such comments, given that that minority is disproportionately represented in clubs, where the bulk of the ‘offensive’ behaviour seems to occur.

    Bearing in mind that I have not read all of the comments, where the issue might have been addressed, I do however have a problem with the author’s view: that the ‘Lads’ are not the only ones to blame. The behaviour of the males in question, and by extension the objectionable views which underpin them, are positively reinforced by their own success. In other words, if their attitudes and behaviour which have here been labelled “reprehensible” and “repugnant” did not achieve the desired results at least some of the time, they surely would not persist. I doubt that anyone disputes that the desired result in this case is simply sex as the author suggested. Therefore the resulting proposition is that these ‘Lads’ must ‘achieve’ sex at least some of the time whilst employing their uniquely distasteful methods.

    Now assuming that the vast, vast majority of that sex is consensual, this is where the problem arises in my mind. Consensual sex is a perfectly legitimate objective for someone to seek, as accepted by the author and crucially it involves two willing parties. Assuming for the sake of argument that in the majority of instances the behaviour of ‘Lads’ is legal (ie: ignoring rare cases which may stray into illegality), can we reasonably object to a person utilising a particular course of behaviour in pursuit of that objective just because we don’t personally approve entirely of the moral value of that method? Well yes, to an extent, but…

    It seems to me that either one of two mutually exclusive conclusions can be drawn; the first is that the women who reward the ‘Lads’ with sex are equally culpable because they reinforce the reprehensible behaviour and encourage those men to continue treating women the same way. If this is the case, then those women have got off scot free in this article for the part they continue to play in the poor treatment of other women. Alternatively, the second conclusion is that if the aforementioned women bear no blame then neither should the ‘Lads.’ This conclusion is subject to the important proviso that when they subject other women to the same methods of approach and it becomes clear that they do not wish for the interaction to continue in that manner, then they cease immediately (which I realise will often not be the case).

    For me, I think only the first conclusion is viable because the second would excuse the behaviour, which would be a poor view to take in my opinion. In contrast, the first conclusion does not attempt to excuse the behaviour whatsoever. It offers a partial justification for the behaviour, which is logically undeniable given that if a particular approach achieves the result that one desires, whilst remaining at all times legal, one is likely to continue to pursue it. However the behaviour remains wrong in my opinion and therefore rewarding it is also wrong, which explains why both the ‘Lads’ and their successful ‘conquests’ should share the blame.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      an emphatic ‘here here’ to this

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      • John

        I suppose you mean “hear, hear”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear_hear

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  31. Kiboko

    It seems a lot of unilads enjoy degrading women and the problem is far worse than I initially thought.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290789/Glasgow-University-Union-debate-Cambridge-undergraduate-tells-shocking-abuse-male-students-elite-university.html?ICO=most_read_module

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    • Gregor McCann

      :O I am gald to have never witnessed anything like this.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        Same here. Glad I’ve never witnessed many of the horrors that I see in the Sun and Dailymail

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        • Gregor McCann

          lol . . . I guess I walked into that one. Well done sir :)

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  32. Ross Kitson

    The funny thing is, he starts off using the same kind of vulgar hyperbole that the ‘UniLads’ often employ; ”…mutilate them with a machete…”. That’s exactly the kind of stuff the ‘UniLads’ say when ever anyone disagrees with them; “Oh I’ll rape you if you don’t be quiet…lol, only joking”. I think it’s this entire generation, not just Uni guys or gals, all 80s/90s kids seem to think that making. shockingly over-the-top vulgar statements is funny as long as you say ‘lol’ afterwards. Good article though.

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    • Gregor McCann

      That’s a very good point and something that I honestly hadn’t considered. Thank you for pointing it out :)

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    • Hector Fair

      could it be that the older generation is shocked by the behaviour/language of the younger? surely this has never happened before? Ross you should take this to the press

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  33. Jodie

    Thank you for writing this article. I know this isn’t how all men behave but unfortunately it seems to be an attitude that is becoming more common as people seem to be under the impression that having lots of sex and being sexually agressive is “cool”. As a woman I’ve had guys grope me in clubs and laugh about it, then they get all angry when I shove them and throw my drink in their face. If the music wasn’t so loud I’d reply to them by saying I was only joking and they should have a sense of humour, lets see how they like it. I really hope this behaviour is just confined to the minority but I have to admit, the only thing I find more repulsive than the people who consider themselves “lads” are the women who willingly sleep with them. I really don’t understand how any woman could sleep with someone like that and its people like them that fuel this ridiculous culture. There’s nothing wrong with having casual sex if that’s something you think is fun but please, have a little self respect and take home a man, not a boy.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      Perhaps having lots of sex is cool because it’s enjoyable? Just because you don’t enjoy it as much doesn’t mean you should try and kill the fun for everyone else. Not all girls like the same old nice-guys that you perhaps do, some girls actually find it attractive to sleep with someone who is a bit of a womaniser. For example most girls I know would probably sleep with Russel Brand given the opportunity. You come across as really spiteful with your attitudes “it’s people like that…”, “I find those women more repulsive” etc.

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      • Jodie

        Heroin is fun, does that make it cool? I said that there’s nothing wrong with having casual sex if you think its fun. All I’m saying is that from what I’ve seen the women who sleep with men like that are either so drunk they don’t know what they’re doing or they have no self respect. But that doesn’t mean that men should assume that all women want to be treated like a toilet seat and think its ok to do so.

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      • Kiboko

        She isn’t being spiteful, she’s making a valid point. I notice you were fairly polite when you responded to me, but not to the other women who posted on here. Why is that? They deserve respect too. No one is saying that sex isn’t fun. But many women who sleep with womanisers have very low self esteem. As for Russell Brand being attractive – purleese. I only know one person who finds him even vaguely attractive. Like Peter Stringfellow and the late Michael Winner, I suspect many of the women who sleep with him wouldn’t do so if he wasn’t famous. He is not attractive full stop and not because he’s had loads of women. Who wants to be thrown away after like a tissue? Ironically, men who claim to have had loads of lovers are generally crap in bed. Maybe their lovers don’t want to go back a second time if they’re that dreadful. In my experience, the best lovers I’ve had have been the ones with the fewest partners. I know this is a generalisation, but this is my experience. They’ve had fewer lovers because the ones they had kept going back as they were fantastic in bed and great as people. The men I’ve slept with who claimed to have loads of women tended to be a bit selfish. If you’re just another knotch on someone’s bedpost and he’s done it all before with loads of women, it becomes meaningless and you wonder what the point is. Your belief that women find womanisers attractive is misguided.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        #1 RB was a womaniser before he was famous
        #2 by definition a womaniser must be doing something right …your last sentence is just so illogical! You certainly come across as believing that attraction is an exclusively physical phenomenon.
        #3 @jodie …really? Comparing sex to the harms of heroin? Good luck with that straw-man argument

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      • Maximillion

        Yeah, but the point is they don’t do it first and foremost because it’s enjoyable; more so because there is this culture of sexual insecurity, and they want to increase their status among other men.

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  34. Julline L

    Your opinion on this is one I agree with, wholeheartedly — not because I “struggle with an opinion”, but because I have thought the same since I can remember.
    I think the “flowery language” is fitting with this article, since your message is that we should rise above the neanderthal views and your use of formal language mirrors this. :) (Or maybe I’m over-analysing…)
    Great article, anyway :) Look at “Messy Mondays”, you’d probably agree with it :)

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  35. Rachel

    I don’t think it’s just a problem with students. I recently went out with a group of friends for someone’s birthday, having a great night and suddenly a man who must have been in his 40s thought it was fine for him to come up behind me and start grinding on me. When I told him to get lost, he laughed at me and carried on until I threatened to call the bouncer over. It’s the whole nightlife culture we have over here. I’ve had guys thinking it’s perfectly acceptable to grab intimate parts of my body without so much as a “how do you do?”

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    • Jason L Morgan

      I agree, it’s not just a problem in unis, the real hardcore sexist people don’t seem to mature and ‘grow out of it’ and such and I’ve certainly seen men aged 40 and whatnot believe in similar mannerisms as you described. It was wrong of him to have carried on when you told him to move on (since he’s verging on committing sexual harassment) and grabbing intimate parts of strangers bodies is equally wrong. However, to complain about someone grinding on you in a night club is, in my opinion, going a bit too far as that is night club culture (it’s typically too loud to always ask for permission to dance) where it’s generally seen as socially accepted to do this. Though equally, it’s my no means acceptable to carry on dancing like so if the girl clearly rejected the advances. Am I right in saying that the main problem was the fact that he was 40 and thought it was acceptable to dance with (pure guess here) someone (you) who’s 20?

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      • Rachel

        No, the main problem was that I don’t want a stranger’s erect penis suddenly thrust against my body without my permission.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        Quite interested in your proposal of practical alternative in a club such as the ministry of sound which plays music up to 160dB. Tap them on the back and attempt to sign a dance request? I think the main problem then was that you disliked his aroused state?.. which is fair. Though it has to be said that the majority of girls clearly do not share your disgust to guys dancing on them in such a manner, else you wouldn’t see clubs packed with guys and girls whining and grinding.

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        • Kiboko

          Has it occurred to you that they might know these men beforehand or had been talking to them for a couple of hours? It’s the grabbing, assuming and not asking for permission we object to. Yes, this still happens to me in clubs by men in their 40′s, 30′s and 20′s. They wait for my fiance to go in the toilet before they grab me, which is totally unacceptable.

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        • Jason L Morgan

          As a regular clubber I can tell you with conviction that the vast majority do not know each other before. There may be a generational difference here which could possibly make it hard to relate but the majority of groups at clubs (of our age 18-25) tend to not be mixed (with exceptions eg campus clubs) and often the only place you can talk is in the queue before entry. “We object to” don’t act like you’re talking on behalf of all girls here. Many girls don’t share your dislike of dancing in a club with someone they didn’t previously know, especially when they find him attractive or a good dancer.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      *as such
      *behave in

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  36. Heather Trend

    Good for you Gregor for writing this and I’m sorry to see you getting so much stick from other male students for it. On behalf of some of the female student population, thank you.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      Congrats on being another individual who struggles with an opinion (no matter how constructive) that clashes with their own. Correct me if I’m wrong Gregor, but I’m quite confident that he doesn’t see other perspectives as getting stick, but rather contributing to a debate. But yeah, good luck in your future endeavours with that sort of narrow personality.

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      • Gregor McCann

        You are not wrong. I actually enjoy it when people have different opinions to me. Unity is boring and dull. I do not think that we have to devolve into ad hominid attack, however. Just as your opinion differs from mine, hers differs from yours. That is not enough of a basis to label her with a ‘narrow personality’.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        I did not label her with a ‘narrow personality’ for disagreeing with me, but rather not being able to accept opposing views, evident from her description of them as ‘giving stick’. I’d rather you didn’t attempt to twist my words! Also, if you want to make your arguments appeal to a greater audience, cut out the flowery language and latin phrases – you’re writing to students and having a debate; we’re not in court! (Though even in law, which I’m reading, there’s a movement to cut out the latin jargon and waffle!)

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        • Gregor McCann

          I am not twisting your words. I am disagreeing with your argument. You state that stated that she is narrow-minded based on a single sentence that she wrote. Am I mistaken? Also, I am not intentionally trying to be ‘flowery’. This is just how I write. I apologise if you have to take the time to look up words, but the sentences that I use contain no ‘jargon’. They just contain English. Anyway, although this is not the point, I thought that the phrase ‘ad hominid’ was well known.

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        • Jason L Morgan

          I’m not making an argument here! I was merely criticising what came across as a very narrow-minded statement (in what should be an open-minded forum), that was partially directed towards myself.

          As for the flowery thing – it’s not so much a case of having to look up words, my passive vocabulary’s large enough thanks very much! It’s more a case of choosing words stylistically based on your audience. Additionally, more often than not, fewer words are more effective where possible.
          Perhaps ad hominid is very well known, though I only recall learning it (and indeed ever using it) during gcse latin! In the real world, I can’t ever imagine that being said in conversation in leu of ‘personal attack’ or words to that effect.

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  37. John Kaloshi

    I find it humorous that you shoot down a comment composed of anecdotal evidence when your article is littered with it. Interesting article over all, especially coming from a ‘lad’. I agree with you on many points but both you and Jason L seem to be exaggerating with you upplaying it significantly and him downplaying it. I go to Bristol and I can confirm that there’s definitely a problem because even if it is a minority, the ring leaders are so confident and manipulative that they naturally cause a lot of harm and damage. I’m quite interested in your solutions though because where the other bloke seems to have one up on you is that he offered some sound ones in a post below to do with targeting those ring leaders. Your solution of obliterating all vestiges of it is somewhat pales in comparison.

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    • Gregor McCann

      The difference between my anecdotes and his are that mine exemplify something that is present throughout the country (as you yourself concede in respect to your university), whilst his (conveniently) represent an argument that seems unlikely to be true.

      As for offering any kind of solution, I am afraid any solution I had to offer would likely be ineffective, or anyone else for that matter. Most likely it would take a subtle education and awareness-raising on the damages that this sort of behavior can have. I am unable to think of how this would be specifically done, though.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      +1 to most of your comment Mr Kaloshi. You’re the second or so person who’s saying I’m downplaying it, and I’m not intending to; but as you say, I don’t think it’s a colossal issue of all lads but rather a select few who instigate the direct bullying hatred.

      @Gregor, I think that’s a fair solution (how effective it would be I don’t know), but I can see it possibly being implemented in a PSHE class early on perhaps; and you never know, a shocking video showing the effects serious sexism can (like any serious bullying) have on select girls, may help prevent the ‘ring leaders’, as Kaloshi puts it, from gaining much traction.

      I’m interested, however, on your opinion of banter amongst friends. Is this something that you see as insulting (or more specifically – potentially sexist, xenophobic, homophobic etc) and thus also something that ought to be obliterated? Because this is where you and I potentially differ the greatest, but I’ll wait for your response on that before continuing.

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      • Gregor McCann

        PSHE could be viable, but the types of people who become the ‘lads’ or ‘ring-leaders’ are rarely the kind who will be affected by a scary video.

        Banter between friends and family is good, obviously. Perhaps my article was not clear enough, but what I was attacking was the attitudes of these guys. I was attacking the way in which they view women, not specific things they do or say (although their attitudes often manifest themselves in this way).

        If you read my other article on mental health discrimination (which I encourage you to do) then you will see that I have no issue with insulting someone who is a friend or, even, a mentally-ill mother. I also have friends with whom I exchange regular, and sometimes rather harsh, insults with. That is not what I am attacking; if it was I’d be a hypocrite.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        “Banter between friends and family is good, obviously.”
        No names, but this isn’t obvious to us all, *cough* charlotte “I can’t wait for the day when.. the word ‘banter’ isn’t in anyone’s vocabulary” :-)

        With regards to the PSHE idea, whether the ‘ring-leader’s’ would or wouldn’t be affected is potentially irrelevant if the majority was. Just like how it’s not cool to be racist anymore (thank god, but it was in the past), if enough people don’t see it as cool (or more specifically, socially acceptable) to spout out horribly derogatory and bullying words to girls, then this will likely cut off a vast supply of the influence the said leaders have. The result being that the extreme sexist remarks and indeed actions (bum pinching has been mentioned) get curbed.

        Indeed, hearing your comments on banter and reading your other article – I don’t feel like we’re on the entirely different wavelengths as I did at first, though you may very well disagree :-)

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        • Gregor McCann

          I’d assume that Charlotte would say the same when it comes to joking between friends, but of course I’d only be guessing.

          That is a good point. A shift in the zeitgeist would definitely have an effect on the ring-leaders; they would not be able to avoid changing if everyone around them viewed their behavior as wrong.

          No, we’re not on completely different wavelengths. I think our main area of disagreement is a somewhat subtle one. We both think that these attitudes are a problem, but we differ in how much of a problem they are. Is that fair to say?

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          • Jason L Morgan

            If by ‘these attitudes’ we’re talking about those held by the so called ‘ring-leaders’, (whom I take to be a tiny minority (not that this mitigates the problem as Mr Kaloshi elegantly explained), but you see as sizeable?) i.e. those who’s attitudes are so strong that they see it as perfectly acceptable to grab a strangers bum or boobs or casually call her a slut; then no, it’s not a fair comment, as I’d say that we’re on the exact same wavelength! I think the main area of discrepancy between us lies within the definition of ‘these attitudes’ with you also including in it, those held by the (what I call) moderates. That is, those who may make casual sexist banter with their mates, but wouldn’t dream of entering the realms of sexist bullying or harassment, and for that matter, may very well NOT actually be sexist (or may even be feminists!).

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  38. Luke

    All women want is sex when men just want a realationship.

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  39. Jason L Morgan

    I’d like to also make a quick comment on Mr McCann’s final line and summation which points towards the ‘numbers’ or ‘tick box’ game which he mentions (and I believe a number of us have probably witnessed on the fairly recent Sun, Sex and Suspicious parents episodes where I myself first became acquainted with this game).

    It builds on the reply I left to Kiboko but really what needs to be noted is that this is merely a game and should only be seen as such and nothing deeper. To put a spin on things, an ex girl friend of mine (perhaps the most liberal one and certainly a true and true feminist) told me, before we were going out and were merely friends; in fact didn’t tell me, but I observed nonetheless, that she was showing off to her friends about how she got off with 28 guys in one night at a club.

    Ow, oh dear, I think I was one of those guys, oh I feel so objectified. Oh how horrible to be the subject of such perverse sexism and misandry. I mean, I don’t know how typical my ex and her friendship group (who all seemed to do that whole show off about your number thing which is pretty much the same as the tickbox game in retrospect) are of other girls but seriously, why take so much offence there? I was just a number if you like, but hey we ended up getting along so well that we had a great fairly long term relationship.

    I’m sorry but the conclusions you draw from that game are just blown right out of proportion and if that reflects the essence and backbone of your argument then I guess that follows suit.

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    • Gregor McCann

      Okay, firstly, anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence. Your girlfriend could do any number of things and be an anomaly; it does not mean that everyone else is doing the same, so it proves nothing that your girlfriend ‘got off with 28 guys in one night at a club’ (which I suspect is a lie anyway). Also, your reaction towards it not necessarily representational of the entire male population and it is certainly not representational of the female population which I was talking about in this article.

      The numbers on the paper are not inherently bad. I say in the article that it’s the attitudes that those numbers represent. My argument is that many guys at university see women as objectified sex objects, which is evident through the way they act. Unless you go to university in a completely different realm than I do, I do not see how you can deny that.

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  40. Kiboko

    I am a female university student who is fortunately not on the receiving end of this as I am 44 and old enough to be the ‘lads” mother. I am their academic peer though. I think this is a big problem and I’m not surprised there was a comment suggesting the author was lacking in testosterone. I doubt that he is, but he doesn’t allow his base urges to run his life and define who he is. I’m not saying either that girls don’t want to have sex. To all of you who think it’s just a bit of fun – I was working with another female student on a presentation (it was on the book Lolita, so this was in context and not out of the blue) and she said she related to the titular character. I asked her why and she looked very dejected. She then told me all over halls and campus, young male students saw young female students as one thing and one thing only. She hesitated and looked at me before continuing. She sad sadly and flatly, “Pussy. It’s all we are to them and all we’ll ever be”. She said it had affected her self confidence and her friends too and knowing they were being looked at like that made their skin crawl. So if your ‘bit of fun’ makes girls feel this bad, is it worth it? If you answered yes to that, you need help. I don’t think it’s a coincidence either that the number of sexual attacks on young female students on campus has increased significantly. If the ‘lads’ don’t start seeing women as people, they will find themselves with no one to have sex with, and displaying nasty personality traits so no one will want anything to do with them. Don’t blame the young women either. The fault lies with the raunch culture and the lads themselves. As the author pointed out, you don’t have to be like this just because you’re male. I’m not saying this as an ‘I’m older than you, so I know best and you shouldn’t be having sex anyway’ kind of way either. It makes no difference to me if you’re at it like rabbits. My issue is with making others feel bad and not showing respect for the people they are. We are all more than the sum of our parts. The young women you refer to in such a derogatory manner are someone’s daughter, someone’s sister, someone’s mother (now or in the future) and people in their own right. Would you like someone you love to be on the receiving end of this?

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    • Jason L Morgan

      Please genuinely believe me when I say that I feel very sorry for the girl who made that comment “Pussy. It’s all we are to them and all we’ll ever be” in fact so much so that I believe a little education is needed. I’d make an educated guess and say that that disgusting attitude applies to perhaps 5% (or likely much less), whom inherently hold such views for some deep-rooted insecurity or something. However 95% are (also*) actually looking for girlfriends and mutually happy loving relationships. *not at the same time but for many there’re virtues of both relationships and casual flings.

      The prime problem, however, is that towards their friends, ‘lads’ tend to portray the more sexist persona and keep the more sensitive, loving traits inside until they find the special one, with whom this side to them, which I’m sure you prefer, gets seen.

      Unfortunately, the effect of this is that you perhaps predominantly notice the more obnoxious behaviour which may upset some girls; but I’m sure wouldn’t (or at least would significantly mitigate the bad feelings) if you knew that this wasn’t the only persona and beliefs within the said lads. I’d even go as far as to say that the latter personality traits are the more deep-rooted, inherent ones with the more former being more just about having slightly immature fun with your friends; hence why it tends to be fairly short-lived.

      I urge you to look around your uni at the evidence of this and actually appreciate how many loving relationships there also are; because I think this important personality trait that we also have is getting significantly overlooked and causing the negative feelings such as in your example.

      So to answer your ‘is it worth it’ question with a yes or no ignores this whole other perspective. If you really want an answer then it is obviously a no, but quite frankly, that assumes there’s only black and white. There’s actually the said middle ground (that to be fair you can only appreciate when you’re in the know about how we truly think and see women) which hopefully satisfies all parties, at least significantly more so than before.

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      • Kiboko

        Young men aren’t all like that, obviously and I get on with most of them on my degree (they’re mostly Philosophy Students, so tend to be a bit different anyway. My English seminar is mostly female). I think the problem is the urge to fit in and peer pressure to be a ‘lad’. It still doesn’t excuse their behaviour and maybe in 10 years time, they’ll be completely different. Unfortunately, the young women aren’t aware that they really want a relationship if all they see is the posturing and gesturing in front of their mates. They don’t realise they’re shooting themselves in the foot and they’d be far more successful in their relationships if they showed more sensitivity. But they’re making the choice that their friends are more important. I haven’t said either that every single male student is like that as I was specifically addressing those who align themselves with the lad culture. My friends range in age from 21 to 47, some of whom are young men who wouldn’t dream of behaving like a ‘lad’. They have the courage to be different and not succumb to peer pressure. Yes, they get drunk sometimes and have fun, most of us do. But they don’t make young women feel like a piece of meat in the process.

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    • Kiboko

      Young men aren’t all like that, obviously. I think the problem is the urge to fit in and peer pressure. It still doesn’t excuse their behaviour and maybe in 10 years time, they’ll be completely different. Unfortunately, the young women aren’t aware that they really want a relationship if all they see is the posturing and gesturing in front of their mates. They don’t realise they’re shooting themselves in the foot and they’d be far more successful in their relationships if they showed more sensitivity. But they’re making the choice that their friends are more important. I haven’t said either that every single male student is like that as was specifically addressing those who align themselves with the lad culture. My friends range in age from 21 to 47, some of whom are young men who wouldn’t dream of behaving like a ‘lad’. They have the courage to be different and not succumb to peer pressure. Yes, they get drunk sometimes and have fun, most of us do. But they don’t make young women feel like a piece of meat in the process.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      It might surprise you to know that some guys who associate themselves in part as a ‘lad’ are also feminists, me included. My previous sixthform was a girls school (mixed sixthform but predominantly girls) and held very strong feminist views which is mostly where I developed them myself and indeed we were involved in many great campaigns voicing the injustices many women face worldwide such as in oppressive countries like Saudi Arabia.

      Why am I mentioning this? Well mostly because you don’t have to sideline us all as one disgusting group ‘that are like that’, there’s naturally a large scale of varying degrees, if you shut out the sexist views that some lads may playfully make around their friends such as “oh my gosh there’s this girl which such enormous jugs in my class, I find it so hard to look at her face when I talk to her” sort of thing, you’ll probably find that with many you can have very intellectual and stimulating conversations with. Naturally, they shouldn’t (and most wouldn’t) make such sexist comments around you, unless they felt they’d developed enough of a friendship and rapport with you that’d be acceptable (though even then I think any intelligent male would recognise that you wouldn’t share said humour and thus would keep it to their other friends).

      On the other hand, I want to make it clear where my stance is, because the following is in my opinion, unacceptable but also not typical – direct comments such as shouting “get your tits” in a bar (making strangers feel like meat), or even making comments about a girl in direct ear shot of her like in the example charlotte gave below, are definitely unacceptable but in the same way that any form of bullying is unacceptable – because that’s essentially what that is (that is, when you’re not friends with a person and are essentially insulting them).

      A few small replies – yes many people do choose their mates over their dates (hence the phrase), which I don’t think is a problem but merely a matter of choice and preference. I don’t think it’s at all just a case of succumbing to peer pressure but more, people having a bit of a laugh with their mates – if you see my comment above you’ll this isn’t just a guy thing. Many are very successful in their relationships as they more often than not eradicate all instances of the slightly sexist banter they through out to their friends whilst in their relationships. “Unfortunately, the young women aren’t aware that they really want a relationship if all they see is the posturing and gesturing in front of their mates.” – sorry I think you slightly misunderstood me, so regarding the small minority that make bullying sexist comments (like the examples I gave), no, of course a girl isn’t going to think they want a relationship because they more than likely don’t. But the guys who simply throw the comments about to their mates, and get overheard by girls, I don’t think you’re correct in your above statement because many would say “that’s just boys being boys or lads being lads” , you might even hear a follow up comment like “my boyfriend acts like that around his guys but he wouldn’t dare around me or I’d chop his bulls off”, or some other playful comment. When I said ‘a little education’ is needed, I was primarily talking to the people in this forum because in actual uni, a large number of girls, most likely the majority, are aware that many guys act differently around their friends compared with their relationships.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        sorry didn’t check that reply over and there’re a few typos but hopefully it’s still readable.

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  41. Charlotte

    Are men really still using the “its just a joke, stop taking it so seriously” defense for their disgusting and misogynistic behaviour, yet getting sensitive when they hear women comparing them (which doesn’t happen by the way)?

    Its unfortunate that men can’t really experience the same things that happen to women in night clubs, like being groped, called to across the bar, followed around, stared at – all by a stranger, all for the sake of trying and failing to pull (do they really think those come ons will ACTUALLY work?). I highly doubt you would ever see a man being treated the way women get treated.

    I think Mr Morgan needs to take a look at it from our side of things. Maybe there are no long term effects on men, maybe they grow up to be loving and respectful of all women.. But what about long term effects on women who have to put up with perverse sexism on a daily basis? And if it is just a joke? If you’re laughing at a sexist joke, you’re approving it. Therefore you are sexist.

    Its such a pity that most girls I know would agree with this article, and can think of at least 5 instances where they’ve been subjected to ‘Lad culture’. I can’t wait for the day when its ‘cool’ to have respect for women and when the word ‘banter’ isn’t in anyone’s vocabulary. There are no excuses for treating a woman like a piece of meat. And if its about “growing up”, maybe its high time these ‘unilads’ all did.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      Yep, that’s exactly what we’re doing because the vast majority isn’t “disgusting and misogynistic behaviour”, come on Charlotte, let’s not exaggerate now. I actually question how many of you are currently actually at uni to make statements like that. Or perhaps you feel that exaggerating is the only way to give any grounding to your points? Or maybe you’ve seen a facebook group of a minority of extremists and assume that 90% of actual uni lads behave like so?

      Well yes of course there’s a certain minority of said people who ARE unfortunately deeply misogynistic; but then there’s also going to be a certain minority who are extreme racists, nationalists, homophobes, xenophobes, anti-semites, islamic extremists…and other unacceptable extremes that will probably always exist, but thankfully safely in their tiny minorities.

      As for your second point, there’s few guys I know, probably including the speaker, who would actually complain about being hit on by a girl – most would take it as a compliment! (You’re actually stereotyping your own gender here to assume that all hate it just because you do). I really invite you to put forward a better example to help us empathise with this ‘serious ongoing problem’ that you and all womanhood have to put up with.

      In fact, with regards to your complaint about being hit on at night clubs – I’m sorry but you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. Guys AND girls both go to night clubs with a key intention often being to try and pull. If you don’t like that then why not go to an all girls club that exists exactly for the purpose of satisfying girls like yourself who aren’t looking for that in a club?

      Your third point fails for the same as your first with “perverse sexism on a daily basis” being the main falsity. To be honest I think I need to make another post covering this as you’re not the only replier that’s disillusioned on this point.

      As for your last point, I’m sorry that you can’t enjoy banter, but that’s your loss as many guy and girls can and share many laughs together doing so.

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      • Charlotte

        Yes, I am actually in university. And on more than one occasion have been told that I picked my subject because its “made for females” and because “its easy” because I’m a girl, so I can’t do difficult subjects (I do psychology).

        Maybe I am completely in the minority of women who feel uncomfortable at a man’s attitudes towards women – and from my experience, it is a lot of men who use the kind of ‘unilad’ approach to pulling girls. When I’m saying “women”, I don’t mean to generalise or stereotype by the way, I just mean from my experience talking about this with girls I know, these are the comments that are mostly agreed on – and most of the female commenters are kind of on the same wavelength.

        With the being hit on by a girl comment, yeah fair enough, girls can hit on boys. But I doubt you’d see a woman doing it by, for example, groping a man or relentlessly trying to speak to them when someone has made it clear they aren’t interested. Plenty of women I know are able to go over to boys wherever they are and strike up a conversation – I’ve comfortably done this in the past – but we strike up an actual conversation. I’ve never seen a man being spoken to any less than intelligently by an interested woman. But again, maybe I’m in a minority of girls. Maybe we really are the more intelligent sex. The point is, men aren’t looked at by most women as a piece of meat, but the other way round is another story and that shouldn’t be acceptable. Like the author of this piece said “there’s more to a woman than a tick in a box”.

        It’s ridiculous to say I should stop going out just so I’m not subjected to this male attitude. What you’re basically saying men should be allowed to treat girls the way that they do and that its our fault for being there. If I wasn’t there, it would be another girl. This doesn’t solve the problem, and to “slightly exaggerate” this is the kind of comment which leads to “well if you stopped wearing skirts men wouldn’t look at you” and encourages rape culture.

        I’m not naive about what happens when I go out – yes, girls and guys go out to pull – but if someone doesn’t want that, people should be respectful enough to leave them alone. I, and other girls, should feel safe to go out with their friends and feel comfortable. However, even if I stopped going out, this wouldn’t help the situation. If you want an example, I came home last week and while walking up the stairs heard two guys making comments about me from the bottom of the stairwell. This was in the afternoon.

        And if that’s not an example of sexism a lot (not meaning to generalise) of women hear on a daily basis – well, the comments made by men in my first paragraph are comments girls hear a lot. I hear comments when I’m in work – ‘We need to hire a fitter girl’ ‘pull your top down a bit, you’ll get more tips’. But as of your last suggestion, maybe I should stop working anywhere and maybe stop going to university so that I’m not subjected to this.

        I can enjoy ‘banter’, but I don’t really appreciate it when its about how I look, or how many guys I should be sleeping with, and I think boys shouldn’t have to put up with that either, or comments about their ‘lack of testosterone’. You really are just the epitome of uni lad aren’t you?

        Perhaps all of this is just me exaggerating. But people – men and women – learn from experience, and this is my experience of men. After reading your comments on the other posts, its clear that you’re never going to understand it from my point of view or that of the other females on here so there is no point in arguing with someone so small minded.

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      • Kiboko

        For the record, some people go clubbing because they like drinking, dancing and hanging out with their friends. It’s not just to pull.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        I’ve pretty much replied to your comment through my reply to Kiboko and my 2nd general comment above but a few brief points…

        1) I never said people don’t go clubbing to do those things, of course we do it’s great fun to just go out with your mates and let out some steam; equally many also go to pull, can both not be possible to you?
        2) Please recite the line where I told you not to go out and in future don’t rewrite my words to suit your argument (I merely said that if you don’t want guys to approach you at all then go to a bar without guys!)
        3) I don’t know what planet you’re on but when a girl says or shows that she’s not interested, guys move on. If they didn’t do this they’d be potentially breaking sexual harassment laws and you’d see a lot more inside!
        4) The same goes for the groping thing, that’s actually illegal and isn’t nearly as common nor accepted as you suggest. If by groping you’re referring to whining&grinding, a type of dancing, then seriously get educated on this subject first before making such audacious comments, that is NOT groping, and when girls aren’t interested they make it obvious, guy moves on, all remains kosher. It was quite obvious I thought why many guys go straight to whining&grinding rather than talking first – loud music? very hard to? I mean what are you suggesting now, boys and girls shouldn’t be allowed to dance with eachother? or should write a note on their phone asking the girl for permission to dance with them and show it to them first? Can we get realistic please…
        5) I’ve already addressed the testosterone comment directly with the speaker, see below, calling me the epitome of the lad culture doesn’t insult/phase me because the culture isn’t the extreme one you see it to be. But as you’ll see from my above comments, it’s quite blatant that I’m clearly not.
        6) The majority of lads do NOT inherently see women as slabs of meat even if this comes across in part by their banter with each other (see reply to kiboko).

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        • Charlotte

          2) Do you really think those clubs exist? They don’t where I’m from. Again my point is that women should feel comfortable going out and not have to avoid a certain place because of the calibre of men who go there.

          3) that is essentially what you are saying and that is how you’re coming across. You’re acting as though the only reason I would go out is to pull and if I don’t like that then I should go away somewhere else.

          4) No. They really don’t leave you alone and please don’t assume that this doesn’t happen to a lot of girls. I’ve been followed home before by a man who would not accept “I have a boyfriend, please leave me alone”.

          5) You’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent on this one. Equally as in 3, no. I’m not stupid, I know the difference between ‘dancing’ and being groped. When a man passes me a glass in work and then grabs my boob and says “Sorry, just wanted an excuse to touch your boob” that isn’t ‘dancing’. When I’m walking through a crowd, not dancing, to get to the bar, and someone gropes my bum, that’s also not ‘dancing’. You’re right, it is sexual harrassment and it shouldn’t be acceptable, but it is and the worst part is that a lot of men find it funny. Do you think if a woman went up to a police officer and said that she was being harrassed, they would do anything to protect her? I can tell you first hand that they don’t. A lot of men may not be in the “extreme” of the uni lad phenomenon but – as you can see from those examples – a lot of them are too. You shouldn’t be defending them, you should be defending women if you’re calling yourself a feminist. Stop belittling the experiences noted in these comments.

          Its a pity that obviously I am a minority who has to be subject to this but its also a pity that you’re making every excuse possible. Unless this is happening to you, you don’t get an opinion. And this is so clearly not happening to you. You can stop replying to this now, you’re starting to really irritate me with your insensitive opinions.

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          • Jason L Morgan

            1) Yes those clubs very much do exist. Maybe more so where I come from (London) but you could always go to gay and lesbian clubs as a third option. And before you start with the usual ‘why should I have to…’ what’s wrong with going to those clubs, you’ll be able to have a good time dancing with friends to the music and won’t have to worry about any of the ‘unilads’ you describe because I can assure you the vast majority won’t be there.

            2) I don’t think you can really argue that the majority of woman feel uncomfortable when they go to clubs so I don’t think you should really use the word ‘women’ like this but I think you’ve already accepted in the end paragraph that you’re a minority here so this doesn’t really need saying.

            3) Completely invalid point. Make’s no reference to what I’ve said and is a weak implication that you’ve tried to draw from what I’ve said.

            4) Ok I take back that you feel like you’re a minority. All I can say is that, yes, as a regular clubber I have observed said behaviour over the years, though not nearly to the extent that you mention. Then again, obviously this is a subtle thing to notice and I there’s probably (from what you say) been many occasions where such bum pinching and what not has gone on that I haven’t seen. I accept your point that I should come across more obviously as being against that behaviour and believe me I am. Nevertheless, NONE of my friends, who also would all associate themselves as lads, would ever dream of doing something a low as groping (I mean what does it seriously achieve)? Thus, I don’t think this reflects the whole uni-lad culture but more a select minority of rather strange individuals who get some sort of (in my opinion perverse) sexual thrill from pinching bums and what not. But seriously, you’ve been unlucky, stalking is also, as you know, illegal and you could very much have called the police on that one.

            5) Again I reiterate you’re definitely more unlucky than the majority (I’m sorry but you cannot argue that the majority of men break the law during work and squeeze women’s boobs) – you’re clearly targeted but seriously, why put up with it, especially in places like work where there’re CCTV cameras? Sexual harassment is no small matter and you’re clearly being subject to it very frequently. Get the police involved seriously. And when you say “I can tell you first hand that they don’t.”, it’s unfortunately true, that many policemen are a bit pathetic (and I’m assuming you were speaking to a man?) but there are dedicated police officers that deal with sexual harassment for this exact reason (usually women and they will, guaranteed, listen and be proactive); I’m sure with a quick google search you can find your nearest one.

            6) I’m not at all defending the extreme ones, I’ve consistently mentioned that I despise that behaviour. I’m defending the vast majority who, like me, don’t behave in this disgusting manner. It seems like you’re right that whilst they are minority, it’s a sizeable enough minority to be a problem. But the solution is not to try to eradicate the entire uni-lad culture (made up predominantly of moderates who don’t even do those things), but instead to tackle the extremist pricks head on by just going straight to the police. Or when that’s impractical (like in a club as you said) then go to the bouncers. The majority (sadly) love an excuse to get a bit rough, and if you tell them that a guy’s harassing you, I’d bet you that the chances are that the bouncer’s would kick them out with or without proof (just please don’t abuse this).

            7) I hope this last comment is just you being brash and isn’t a reflection on your personality as a whole. I am on opinion-panel and have a different perspective to contribute, so don’t tell me that I don’t deserve an opinion, incredibly rude. I’ve accepted many of your points and even criticisms, and have even offered constructive advice. If you cannot accept a different perspective from your own then this reflects very sadly on your personality.

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  42. Samantha Ashman

    Luckily for me, the men on my course are not like this. But then, I do English and the gender balance is strongly weighted towards the female. However, I have socialised before within the wider social group and found the males to be, if not as rude as you imply (I never go to clubs or drinking parties), certainly as single-minded.

    I find the replies on here from those opposing the article are indicative of the mentality of many of the sexist people I have heard speak on such subjects before. Believe me, I am not one to complain about sexist behaviour usually either.

    Rampant sexism is not ‘boyish fun’. Boyish fun is finding girls to be friends and exploring with them – perhaps competing as to who has successfully engaged in the most sexual positions. It is absolutely not viewing (and treating) women just like sexual objects there to ‘make up the numbers’. I’m sure you guys would be the first to complain if women were to take to ‘girlish fun’ that you found offensive.

    This is ugly:

    “Heck it’s fun being a little rude, a little sexist, doesn’t necessarily make us all misogynistic nor actually sexist (that might sound like a contradiction but) what you need to understand is that you’re taking it all too seriously.”

    The ‘it’s just a joke’ defence has been used to the point of cliche in media and film in the past 30 years. I cannot believe that that has slipped your notice, Mr Morgan. Obviously, there’s a good part of the original article that IS true – and you are the evidence of it.

    The dig at the author’s ‘lack of testosterone’ is also precisely what HE describes as being the behaviour of these UniLads towards people who do not act like they do. Congratulations on proving his every point.

    Oh, and being a girl I can tell you that I never engage in any sort of gossip about guys’ penis sizes in toilets – and I don’t know anyone who does.

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    • Jason L Morgan

      This comment is so naive “Rampant sexism is not boyish fun” it deserves little reply; I merely urge you to look back at the first point I made.

      As for this comment “I’m sure you guys would be the first to complain if women were to take to ‘girlish fun’ that you found offensive”, believe it or not but there’s a couple of girls in our friend group who frequently throw banter-like digs at us, and no, we don’t run to the nearest corner and sulk. It’s just a bit of fun. Which takes me nicely onto my next reply…”The ‘it’s just a joke’ defence has been used…”, I’m sincerely sorry that you take offence so easily, but perhaps question who’s actually at fault there? Also, as a piece of friendly advice, perhaps try watching a few stand up comedy shows (Dara O Brian type) to help you realise that banter isn’t a personal attack. Heck, you might even find that having fun isn’t so hard after all…!

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      • Samantha Ashman

        *smile* I did read your comment. But I don’t think you are right. The original article wasn’t accusing all men at uni of being the misogynist type – he was simply referring to the ones that are.

        I appreciate that people disagreeing with you can appear to not have a sense of humour, but you have had every female replying to this thread saying that they find the behaviour somewhere in the range between pathetic and intimidating. This must, at least, indicate that there are many people who would prefer you didn’t engage in it.

        You may engage in sexist banter with girls you know, but it seems like your collective immaturity is just feeding off itself. I’m sorry to tell you that that kind of ‘banter’ isn’t generally appreciated in work, or basically anywhere else than where you are. When I banter with my friends, we don’t make sexist jokes – just as we don’t make racist jokes, or jokes at the expense of disabled people. It’s just obvious politeness and courtesy, and I don’t see why it isn’t obvious to you too.

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        • Jason L Morgan

          “that kind of ‘banter’ isn’t generally appreciated in work, or basically anywhere else than where you are”.

          This comment actually makes me feel a bit sorry for you if you’re so ill at ease that you feel the need to behave in a working environment with your friends. By definition, banter involves making digs towards each other, but we’re relaxed and secure enough in our friendships to not take jokes with elements of racism, sexism or whatever seriously. One of my closest friends is chinese and I frequently call him noodles – oo ahh, does that make me an inherent racist? No, he simply replies by calling me duck feet because I have flat feet (a disability if you like) which apparently makes it look like I walk and run like a duck.

          “It’s just obvious politeness and courtesy, and I don’t see why it isn’t obvious to you too.” – of course that’s the manner in which we behave in class and indeed at work; but once again I feel sincerely sorry for you if you have the level of insecurity with your friends that you convey.

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          • Samantha Ashman

            Well, if you want to engage in such sarcastic commiserations, then I feel sorry for you that common politeness and respect for other people is something that you consider to be only fit behaviour for work.

            However, I think you’ve done this to death now. Feel free to argue in an empty room, if that’s your bent.

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  43. Borntobeaheadteacher

    “…regress through the evolutionary eons and behave like nothing more than primitive mammals…”?
    This is essentially what we are – the exceptionally complex world we’ve constructed around ourselves does not change the fact that we are mammals, driven by survival instincts…
    Yes, this small section of socoiety is brash and lacks in social grace, but surely your soapbox could be put to much better use?

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    • Jason L Morgan

      +1

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    • Gregor McCann

      We have transcended much of our humble beginnings. Society has made it so humans need not behave like the mammals that they are. It is ‘natural’ and mammalian to ejaculate inside a woman during intercourse. Should contraception be ignored as counteracting this? If we were to discard contraception we would be regressing to our primordial origins. Equally, when men behave in this way towards women, they are not behaving as twenty-first century, cultural people, but, as I said, primitive mammals.

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  44. Jason L Morgan

    Sadly your article completely alienates for a number of reasons, not least due to the unnecessary use of flowery language but primarily due to its ignorance, rudeness and stereotypes. I’m going to take the opposite approach and try to make my response as short and to the point as possible:
    1)Your whole article is based on the extreme end of the unilad culture, the same one that borat already successfully ridiculed. Thus your first pitiful is that you attempt to stereotype the whole culture to something that the majority doesn’t conform to.
    2) the vast majority are merely having boyish fun. Without wanting to get personal I feel like you are lacking in the testosterone department or something and I don’t say this as an insult but more as a likely justification for this outburst. But are you so naive as to think girls don’t talk about guys in derogatory ways behind our backs? Typically (perhaps slightly stereo~) in the ladies toilets, they won’t hold back from comparing guys merely on penis size, athletic build and/or sexual pleasure. It’s all, for many, a natural part of adolescent culture (namely being very sexually active) and it’s no coincidence that so many, perhaps/seemingly the majority, are part of it. Heck it’s fun being a little rude, a little sexist, doesn’t necessarily make us all misogynistic nor actually sexist (that might sound like a contradiction but) what you need to understand is that you’re taking it all too seriously. Someone might make a joke as part of banter and you seem like the type that would take offence from such an activity and accuse them of being rude or sexist or whatever. And finally, like another commentator already said it’s merely an adolescent phase that comes and comes so there really is none of this long term damage that you’re implying.

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    • William Cleary

      Why are you hanging around in girls’ toilets?
      Sexist jokes only serve to reinforce sexist values so stop using them.
      I agree about the problem with flowery language though.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        * comes and goes (sorry typo)
        actually my ex told me all about what girs are like on their own and to be honest I more or less knew most of it already – it’s pretty much common knowledge so that’s a kind of stupid comment to make.

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    • Gregor McCann

      Honestly I think all of what you said can be rebutted with one very simple question. When is the last time a woman walked up to a guy in a club and groped him without asking?

      As for your testosterone comment. Please, if you wish to insult me, aim at something that has even a shred of a chance of having any sort of an effect. I, unlike you, it seems, am not so easily upset at something as trivial as a comment on a website.

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      • Jason L Morgan

        1) That hardly rebuts the fact that you’re whole article is either a gross exaggeration or a large complaint about a tiny minority.
        2) I’m actually going to apologise for making that comment, it genuinely wasn’t meant as an insult but was more of a spur of the moment admittedly fairly weak assumption that I made and take back.
        3) Not too sure where you’re going with the me being upset thing, as far as I’m concerned we’re just having a healthy debate here with me seated in the opposition. But I hope you can accept my apology because I didn’t intend to start a silly insult war and would rather stick to more constructive (and less flowery :-) ) arguments.

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        • Gregor McCann

          Please, just answer my question with complete honesty. Do you really think that women are as bad as guys when it comes to this? Please think about it before answering.

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  45. Stevie

    To be honest, this really is nothing new. ‘Lads’ at that age, be them in uni or not, have an overdose of testosterone and other hormones going CRAZY and from what I’ve seen, it causes the awful laddish behaviour – all competing, taking risks and trying to be viewed and/or noticed as an alpha male. The good news is, it doesn’t last. Or if it does, they turn into an official dickhead (as opposed to the temporary one that has youth for an excuse) and lose a lot of friends etc. They also seem to become the blokes that women strive to avoid. I 5think people learn a LOT about themselves and each other from attending university and no one goes through it without changing in at least one way. Sadly, I don’t think the culture will change any time soon. But most guys tend to grow up and change (ESPECIALLY when they realise and wonder why, they aren’t getting anything). PS, i’m at uni as a mature student (couple of months from 40) and see through the dickheads behaviour from a mile :)

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  46. Liam

    I feel exactly the same. I used to feel revolted at the sight of knuckle-dragging man children harassing and preying on women to the point where I just stopped going to the majority of clubs in Nottingham. It is a culture that is damaging while these people are at university but will be so much worse if even a fraction this behaviour is carried on into the outside world once they graduate. Women can choose to avoid certain clubs whilst at university, but imagine if women were forced to avoid certain jobs because these kinds of idiots are running amok in the workplace. It’s so very depressing.

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  47. Ashley-Kate Mc Cann

    It’s amazing to me that, in my experience, this attitude is in the majority not the minority. It worries me these are the co-workers of the future.

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    • Clare

      I totally agree with you. I cannot think of anything worse than having to work with these “lads” in the future.

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  48. Jennie

    I completely agree with this. Makes our generation look so idiotic. I am ashamed to be associated with this culture at uni (as I also attend uni too). One of the first things that people associate with uni is sex, which appalls me as it should be education and fun. Thank God that it is only a portion of uni students that are like this.

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    • greg

      I thought the original article had merit until it desended into a bitch fight. As a mature student ( married four times with loads of kids + from twenties to mid forties ) with a long career behind me and at uni because I want to be…….., I suspect that none of this behaviour happens in front of mums and dads… Once off the leash both sexs sometimes behaviour in a manner that would shame those who actually know them

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      • Patrick Else

        I agree with your article entirely. Many men these days ee the woman as a prize and need to tick them all off the list in one night. Whether any long-term relationships will result from any encounters of this kind, seems, to me, unlikely. Also, “needless ranting” as Amber Lennox says seems to be to be, in contrast, highly necessary. You are merely putting your point across, and if there was just objective analysis, this article woud not influence the “Unilad” to change.

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